Burglary at remote Peak District farm, murder arrest

[dundarach]

I'm not really sure I want to go down any paths championed by the U.S. in regards to protecting ones home.

Whilst I'm always happy to see a promising young footballing lad and his mates die after their car flips at speed whilst being chased by the police, I'd not welcome killing anyone entering your house, just because you can.

After a while, it'll only end up encouraging situations like this:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/uber-driver-killed-sc...

That said, it's a pity he didn't kill them all and bury them deep so that none of us had to get upset about it, I am reasonably confident their input into the human race was minimal, with the exception of creating more of the same.

Sad case all around, there's no object worth protecting enough, that it buggers up the rest of your life!

[Biggy Stardust]

Four troublemakers vs 1 guy minding his own business.

He can reasonably claim to be in fear of his life & acted accordingly. We don't have a shortage of burglars so it's all good.

[troika]

Worth an MBE, at least.

[PurpleTurtle]

Even though I'm generally a tofu-munching, left-leaning wokeist Guradianista, I've always been of the view that once you break into someone's property you've overstepped the line of what then happens to you.

Get slotted by a 12-bore? Oops, occupational hazard. I have zero sympathy for the burglars, I hope the homeowner gets off.

For context, I've been the victim of burglary three times at two different addresses, nobody apprehended on any occasion.

[Somewhatfoolish]

What do the police mean by "targeted incident"? Are they saying the burglary was "personal" in some sort of way?

[ScotHill]

Somewhatfoolish said:

What do the police mean by "targeted incident"? Are they saying the burglary was "personal" in some sort of way?

Sounded more like they had targeted that house, for whatever reason, probably the loot rather than the man, and to put other locals' minds at rest that there wasn't some random burglary gang roaming the fields.

[Lotobear]

...the miscreants will doubtless all be fun loving 'characters' who doted their Mums and would do anything for anyone and at least one promising footballer. Local Ikea will be fresh out of tea lights and blow up heart shaped balloons

[Swervin_Mervin]

Earthdweller said:

Interesting is the arrest for the offence of aggravated burglary which is committed when someone enters a property with a weapon of offence .. ie firearm, imitation firearm or any article made or adapted for causing injury/incapacitation or explosive device

The sentence is life imprisonment

If confronted by said burglars then the level of force to defend oneself reasonably would be at a higher level

Using lethal force to defend against the use of or threat of lethal force could well be quite reasonable

Yep. Hopefully. Presumably the arrest for murder is to buy as much time for the initial investigations and questioning?

There would be some delicious irony if they'd been shot with their own firearms.

[sugerbear]

How do you know that the person snooping around the outside of the house isn't just looking for the owner/innocent.If you leave your front door unlocked and a good samaritan walks by and notices you in the front room, unresponsive, should they enter the house or wait half an hour for the police / wait half an hour for the ambulance to turn up?

Not saying that either of these things are what happened but the right approach is the one we currently have.

[oddman]

Somewhatfoolish said:

What do the police mean by "targeted incident"? Are they saying the burglary was "personal" in some sort of way?

That's how I read it. Like most of the country, in the Pennines, most of the farmhouses with a bit of land aren't farms. Not unusual for the purveyors of rare herbs and prescribed chemicals to move out of the city where they do business.

If you walk or bike around Halifax/Hebden Bridge you can see the location scouts for 'Happy Valley' would never run out of dodgy and rough looking places to film.

[Slowboathome]

I know virtually nothing about this stuff, but don't the licence conditions for a firearm include keeping it in a locked cabinet separate from the ammunition?

If the CPS wants to be s I imagine they'll go down the road of 'his reaction wasn't an instinctive, heat of the moment response' (unlike grabbing a kitchen knife that was lying on a worktop.)

Just to be clear, on the basis of the information available I hope he gets off completely and it's a shame all 3 of the burglars didn't die.

Edited by Slowboathome on Thursday 2nd May 12:56

[Countdown]

hairykrishna said:

Ian Geary said:

Also I think Tony Martin hid behind a door and ambushed them

Not only was he lying in waiting for them but he shot them in the back as they were running away. With an illegally held gun. He was lucky to only do 3 years.

If you feel your life is threatened then defending with lethal force is perfectly legal.

In his defence hadn't he been targeted numerous times previously?

[Zetec-S]

sugerbear said:

How do you know that the person snooping around the outside of the house isn't just looking for the owner/innocent.If you leave your front door unlocked and a good samaritan walks by and notices you in the front room, unresponsive, should they enter the house or wait half an hour for the police / wait half an hour for the ambulance to turn up?

Not saying that either of these things are what happened but the right approach is the one we currently have.

Agreed. Many years ago we were looking at a place to rent, the agent had given me the key and told us we could go and have a look ourselves. Got there and struggled to work out which one it was, despite being a fairly mundane street of semi's, very few houses had a number on display. Finally worked our way back to what we thought was the right one, but couldn't get the door open, and all of a sudden the door opens from the inside and a grumpy looking bloke asks if he can help us. Turns out that some of the numbers were slightly out of sequence and we needed a place a few doors down. No harm done and we laughed it off, I guess if it was America there's a good chance I'd be dead.

[mac96]

Countdown said:

hairykrishna said:

Ian Geary said:

Also I think Tony Martin hid behind a door and ambushed them

Not only was he lying in waiting for them but he shot them in the back as they were running away. With an illegally held gun. He was lucky to only do 3 years.

If you feel your life is threatened then defending with lethal force is perfectly legal.

In his defence hadn't he been targeted numerous times previously?

Was that by the same guys? If so, shooting a man who is leaving today but will be back next week sounds less unreasonable.

[Scootersp]

dundarach said:

I'm not really sure I want to go down any paths championed by the U.S. in regards to protecting ones home.

neither am I, I just found the contrast interesting, it's almost the polar opposite when we are in other ways very similar to the US.

[oddman]

Slowboathome said:

I know virtually nothing about this stuff, but don't the licence conditions for a firearm include keeping it in a locked cabinet separate from the ammunition?

If the CPS wants to be s I imagine they'll go down the road of 'his reaction wasn't an instinctive, heat of the moment reaction' (unlike grabbing a kitchen knife that was lying on a worktop.

Just to be clear, on the basis of the information available I hope he gets off completely and it's a shame all 3 of the burglars didn't die.

A lot will depend on where the 'farmer' was at the time of the burglary in relation to his cabinet, the keys and his shells. Shotgun shells don't need to be stored securely. Rifle ammunition needs to be in a separate lockable box (this can be inside the gun safe). I've always thought it would be difficult to get to my keys, cabinet and my shells before a hypothetical intruder got to me. If his gun just happened to be out, 'for cleaning', in his bedroom then I guess it might help his defence but not the reapplication for his shotgun certificate.

[Tom8]

Being a farm owner and fairly isolated, we have to police ourselves as no one else does. If this means people such as this are legitimately gunned down and the law is applied fairly to support them then good news.

[MitchT]

fttm said:

Hopefully the home owner isn't charged . I'm with the majority of decent people on this one , feral low life scum break into your property then their rights are left at the door , no ifs no buts .

Totally this.

The law should simply state that the minute you dismiss the human rights of another by commencing a crime against them, you forfeit your own human rights, and any consequence arising from said crime will be recorded as misadventure.

[BrettMRC]

oddman said:

Slowboathome said:

I know virtually nothing about this stuff, but don't the licence conditions for a firearm include keeping it in a locked cabinet separate from the ammunition?

If the CPS wants to be s I imagine they'll go down the road of 'his reaction wasn't an instinctive, heat of the moment reaction' (unlike grabbing a kitchen knife that was lying on a worktop.

Just to be clear, on the basis of the information available I hope he gets off completely and it's a shame all 3 of the burglars didn't die.

A lot will depend on where the 'farmer' was at the time of the burglary in relation to his cabinet, the keys and his shells. Shotgun shells don't need to be stored securely. Rifle ammunition needs to be in a separate lockable box (this can be inside the gun safe). I've always thought it would be difficult to get to my keys, cabinet and my shells before a hypothetical intruder got to me. If his gun just happened to be out, 'for cleaning', in his bedroom then I guess it might help his defence but not the reapplication for his shotgun certificate.

In this situation I'd imagine I would have just been going out, or returning from dealing with a troublesome fox.

[Condi]

Countdown said:

In his defence hadn't he been targeted numerous times previously?

Yes.

The law is that if you feel threatened you can use proportionate force. Tony Martin's defence fell down because the guy was running away from him, and so there was no longer an imminent danger to his life.

It will come down to what, if any, weapons the burglars had, and whether they were coming towards him or not. You can't use lethal force to protect property, so if he had spotted them in the yard and opened fire he won't have much defence.